Hi Eventiders !
Some of you may have noticed that I have been talking about building a boat ( perhaps my Senior Mk.4) . This event is getting nearer, however, living in Germany does have a few little problems. Here is one of them.
A German registered boat has to be totally owned by German subjects and has to fly the German flag. Also they are quite sensitive about flag-protocol. As I cannot call my boat a German boat, unless I can get a special dispensation, I will have to treat it as an English boat. Setting no flag at all is taken as disrespect.
Must I or may I fly the red ensine ?
Under what conditions could I register my boat in England.
I am still an Englisg subject in spite of living over 30 years in Deutchland.
Any Ideas ?
Grüße
Len.
Flags
Moderators: Eventide Owners Group, Piskie, chris s
-
Fiddler's Green
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Wed March 1st, 2006, 12:58 pm
- Location: Essex
- Contact:
Flags?
Hello Len, this is an odd one!
As a British subject you should be able to fly the Red Ensign, but you would really need to register the boat in Britain to to this.
The Small ship Register, you can search on the net and find them, cover registrations. It is low cost and does not prove ownership. however I do believe you will need a UK address? Relative somewhere??
Having seen so many of the ilicit 'Euro' flags flown, I wonder if you could get away with that.... Failing that, could you register the boat in Belgium or Holland?
Regards,
John
As a British subject you should be able to fly the Red Ensign, but you would really need to register the boat in Britain to to this.
The Small ship Register, you can search on the net and find them, cover registrations. It is low cost and does not prove ownership. however I do believe you will need a UK address? Relative somewhere??
Having seen so many of the ilicit 'Euro' flags flown, I wonder if you could get away with that.... Failing that, could you register the boat in Belgium or Holland?
Regards,
John
Proud owner and builder of 'Fiddler's Green'
Hello John,
Many thanks for the info.
I am not at all keen to even try to register in a third country. I would have no idaer about what rules and regulations that would entail. Not to speak of the language problem.
My instructor (for the Germam license courses) says he knows people in power and could get me a dispensation !!
However, a British registration might save me from some of the German regulations like those which insist on certain work being performed by expensive licensed firms.
Many thanks for the info.
I am not at all keen to even try to register in a third country. I would have no idaer about what rules and regulations that would entail. Not to speak of the language problem.
My instructor (for the Germam license courses) says he knows people in power and could get me a dispensation !!
However, a British registration might save me from some of the German regulations like those which insist on certain work being performed by expensive licensed firms.
Leonard_Woods
Hi All,
I have now bought a Red Ensign (rather expensive) from England but things are not looking too good. To build a boat I need to extend my garage. Simple ... but nothing is simple in Germany, at least not if it can be made complicated. The extension will extend over the "building limit line". If I can get permission to do that, then I can apply for planning permission. If I get that I can have the garage extended and think about which boat I will build.
Even then the problems of ownership and registration are formidable. e.g. Radio must be an approved set and operated by a licensed operator. I am in the process of getting an ( no I need 2) license (SRC) but that only lets me use German installations, on German boats. The radio would be but the boat would not.
I hope you find this rambling amusing ... or is English bureaucracy catching the German up ?
Cheers,
Len
I have now bought a Red Ensign (rather expensive) from England but things are not looking too good. To build a boat I need to extend my garage. Simple ... but nothing is simple in Germany, at least not if it can be made complicated. The extension will extend over the "building limit line". If I can get permission to do that, then I can apply for planning permission. If I get that I can have the garage extended and think about which boat I will build.
Even then the problems of ownership and registration are formidable. e.g. Radio must be an approved set and operated by a licensed operator. I am in the process of getting an ( no I need 2) license (SRC) but that only lets me use German installations, on German boats. The radio would be but the boat would not.
I hope you find this rambling amusing ... or is English bureaucracy catching the German up ?
Cheers,
Len
Leonard_Woods
-
Eventide Owners Group
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Wed March 1st, 2006, 1:00 pm
- Contact:
Registration and legislation
Hi Len, does make you wonder who they are trying to protect with all these rules!
Hopefully we do not get like this here... or are we already! Seems the rules and regulations here are getting tighter and tighter, but as many cannot ever be enforced, they made all us police desk bound years ago, what is the point....
Best of luck,
john
Hopefully we do not get like this here... or are we already! Seems the rules and regulations here are getting tighter and tighter, but as many cannot ever be enforced, they made all us police desk bound years ago, what is the point....
Best of luck,
john
Web site Coordinator
Hi All,
Just in case any one gets me wrong. I have lived over 30 years in Germany and am pleased to do so. In many ways I found it better than in England. Especially the working climate was much better. That is no longer true. The EU and Globalisation have started a "class war". Firms no longer look after their workers, they regard them as a resource to be used to maximise profit. Luckily, I am now retired.
Also I find the schooling and licensing of skippers and radio operators fully correct. Correct use of radio could be a matter of life or death. Even here (dare I say it) you do not need a license to skipper a sailing boat !!! only if it has a motor of more than 5 HP (used or not). Trouble is, if you don't, you could have difficulty with insurance.
I assume you also need a "short range certificate" (SRC) to use VHF radio ? Do you equip your boats with marine VHF and DSC ?
I am currently attending a course for an SRC. That is 5 sessions of 2hrs over 4 weeks. The exam consists of 3 parts. First a language test. Dictation and translation English/German and Deutsch/Englisch. A written test of 35 questions in one hour. Written answers - not multi choice. Then an extensive practical test with VHF radio + DSC.
Well at least it keeps the brain active.
This does not demand a reply but I would like to know more about how things are in England. Very different from 30 years ago ?
Regards
Len
Just in case any one gets me wrong. I have lived over 30 years in Germany and am pleased to do so. In many ways I found it better than in England. Especially the working climate was much better. That is no longer true. The EU and Globalisation have started a "class war". Firms no longer look after their workers, they regard them as a resource to be used to maximise profit. Luckily, I am now retired.
Also I find the schooling and licensing of skippers and radio operators fully correct. Correct use of radio could be a matter of life or death. Even here (dare I say it) you do not need a license to skipper a sailing boat !!! only if it has a motor of more than 5 HP (used or not). Trouble is, if you don't, you could have difficulty with insurance.
I assume you also need a "short range certificate" (SRC) to use VHF radio ? Do you equip your boats with marine VHF and DSC ?
I am currently attending a course for an SRC. That is 5 sessions of 2hrs over 4 weeks. The exam consists of 3 parts. First a language test. Dictation and translation English/German and Deutsch/Englisch. A written test of 35 questions in one hour. Written answers - not multi choice. Then an extensive practical test with VHF radio + DSC.
Well at least it keeps the brain active.
This does not demand a reply but I would like to know more about how things are in England. Very different from 30 years ago ?
Regards
Len
Leonard_Woods
-
Fiddler's Green
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Wed March 1st, 2006, 12:58 pm
- Location: Essex
- Contact:
Differences in 30 years
Hello Len,
you probably did the right thing moving away. So many of my former police colleagues moved to the 4 corners of the world. They are all having a better time of it than we seem to have on our overcrowded little island.
Legislation and rules now abound, too many edicts and the like coming from the EU as well. We seem to be the only country that enforces them all! I feel the French have the right idea, if the rule is daft, they ignore it!
Too many 'job's worths' here!
As for kit and gear, most, if not all of us sail with GPS and VHF, though many lke me have not upgraded to DSC radio as yet. (Whilst my old VHF still works I see no need.) I was involved with DSC when it started.. There was a 98% false distress call rate for years! Too many fingers pressing that button, with no idea what it did! (I used to teach VHF!)
We do not have compulsory registration of boats, yet, but it will come, most of us register under the Small Ships Register if we intend going foriegn.
So far we, as individuals, are unlicensed too. Long may this continue. Sadly it will only take one wally to do something daft and cause an accient too many, and all the legislation will be dropped on us..
Many like me, are certificated, some more than others. I taught Yachtmaster and have a DTi Boatmasters ticket, the proffessionals one. But there is little incentive to do so. A few % off the insurance maybe, that is all.
I feel that a dayskipper shore course aught to be the minimum that a cruising sailor should acquire before they head off in a boat. That way they stand a chance of keeping out of trouble and then enjoying it all the more.
Regards,
John
you probably did the right thing moving away. So many of my former police colleagues moved to the 4 corners of the world. They are all having a better time of it than we seem to have on our overcrowded little island.
Legislation and rules now abound, too many edicts and the like coming from the EU as well. We seem to be the only country that enforces them all! I feel the French have the right idea, if the rule is daft, they ignore it!
Too many 'job's worths' here!
As for kit and gear, most, if not all of us sail with GPS and VHF, though many lke me have not upgraded to DSC radio as yet. (Whilst my old VHF still works I see no need.) I was involved with DSC when it started.. There was a 98% false distress call rate for years! Too many fingers pressing that button, with no idea what it did! (I used to teach VHF!)
We do not have compulsory registration of boats, yet, but it will come, most of us register under the Small Ships Register if we intend going foriegn.
So far we, as individuals, are unlicensed too. Long may this continue. Sadly it will only take one wally to do something daft and cause an accient too many, and all the legislation will be dropped on us..
Many like me, are certificated, some more than others. I taught Yachtmaster and have a DTi Boatmasters ticket, the proffessionals one. But there is little incentive to do so. A few % off the insurance maybe, that is all.
I feel that a dayskipper shore course aught to be the minimum that a cruising sailor should acquire before they head off in a boat. That way they stand a chance of keeping out of trouble and then enjoying it all the more.
Regards,
John
Proud owner and builder of 'Fiddler's Green'
Hi John,
Many thanks for taking the trouble to reply.
I am still not clear exactly what the registration rules are here. They do not seem to have catered for a non.national having a boat and German licenses.
As I probably said, I now have licenses to "drive ?" power boats (or sailing boats with more than 5hp) on canals and the "SeeSchifffahrtsStrassen". The latter are the estuaries and the shipping lanes and the immediate coastal area. My exam for an SRC is next Sat. (23.2) and will probably take up most of the day. My next step is a "SportKuestenSchifferSchein (SKS)" for sail. For that in April I have 3 days on a 3-mast Schooner in the North Sea plus 14 days on a 15m yacht in the Adria. Super ! I will have to sit the theorie exam later in the year. Strictly that only covers skippering in the 12mile zone. They have 2 higher licenses which step up to global. I do not expect to have any problems with the SKS tests, but the SRC worries me more. Now that the course has ended I have no access to a dsc. Must go and learn.
All thi just incase any one is interested. No reply is necessary but welcome.
len
Many thanks for taking the trouble to reply.
I am still not clear exactly what the registration rules are here. They do not seem to have catered for a non.national having a boat and German licenses.
As I probably said, I now have licenses to "drive ?" power boats (or sailing boats with more than 5hp) on canals and the "SeeSchifffahrtsStrassen". The latter are the estuaries and the shipping lanes and the immediate coastal area. My exam for an SRC is next Sat. (23.2) and will probably take up most of the day. My next step is a "SportKuestenSchifferSchein (SKS)" for sail. For that in April I have 3 days on a 3-mast Schooner in the North Sea plus 14 days on a 15m yacht in the Adria. Super ! I will have to sit the theorie exam later in the year. Strictly that only covers skippering in the 12mile zone. They have 2 higher licenses which step up to global. I do not expect to have any problems with the SKS tests, but the SRC worries me more. Now that the course has ended I have no access to a dsc. Must go and learn.
All thi just incase any one is interested. No reply is necessary but welcome.
len
Leonard_Woods
One question? Is VHF really a requirement these days?
I for one would rather sail without it, thats what distress flares are for!!
Theres all to much of this gadgetry talked about yachts, what ever happend to old edict of 'Pump or Die'.
Or, have I been away from sailing too long and this is all become mandatory these days?
Myself and my parents sailed for 20+ years in the Solent area without the need for VHF, SRC, RDF etc, without any major mishap which we couldn't deal with.
Regards
Adrian
I for one would rather sail without it, thats what distress flares are for!!
Theres all to much of this gadgetry talked about yachts, what ever happend to old edict of 'Pump or Die'.
Or, have I been away from sailing too long and this is all become mandatory these days?
Myself and my parents sailed for 20+ years in the Solent area without the need for VHF, SRC, RDF etc, without any major mishap which we couldn't deal with.
Regards
Adrian
-
Fiddler's Green
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Wed March 1st, 2006, 12:58 pm
- Location: Essex
- Contact:
VHF
Hi Adrian,
VHF today is rather like the mobile phone ashore. Most would not go out without one, even to the local shops.
The VHF today, and I realise you have not sailed for years, has entered the digital generation.
I have not yet switched to digital, but many have. When my set fails for any reason, I will as you can only buy the DSC sets. The new VHF sets give you the ablitiy to inform rescue automatically if you come across a boat in distress or are in distress yourself. They can automatically give position, if linked to GPS. In addition they have the ability to be alerted to any distress nearby and a friend can call you, without anyone else hearing them, you actually have what is called a 'MMSI' code like a phone number, that you can let other have if you want.
In addition to the clever stuff the CG now read the inshore and full forecast every few hours and on demand. (provided they are not working to rule still!) When I was on the RYA cruising committee, now disbanded sadly, (think the RYA are heavily back into racing, not cruising). I suggested the CG could use the now defunct 'public correspondance' VHF channels to play a weather forecast tape on, permantly, as they do in the States. This was considdred a great idea by all, but as yet, 10 years on, no one has done it. Another wasted opportunity.
If the sound of the VHF on board grates, you could always turn it off, but I keep a listening watch and I have answered several calls for help, or assisted the RNLI and CG, and think those that opt out are more than a little antisocial. (Yep I know a couple of them....)
Add to this some ports and areas now have byelaws and regulations whereby you are required to monitor their VHF channels whilst in their area, you are expected to have a set.
Another point, the prices. A good, full digital DSC radio, waterproof with all bells and whistles can be less than £100.
What price safety?
Food for thought anyway
Regards,
John
VHF today is rather like the mobile phone ashore. Most would not go out without one, even to the local shops.
The VHF today, and I realise you have not sailed for years, has entered the digital generation.
I have not yet switched to digital, but many have. When my set fails for any reason, I will as you can only buy the DSC sets. The new VHF sets give you the ablitiy to inform rescue automatically if you come across a boat in distress or are in distress yourself. They can automatically give position, if linked to GPS. In addition they have the ability to be alerted to any distress nearby and a friend can call you, without anyone else hearing them, you actually have what is called a 'MMSI' code like a phone number, that you can let other have if you want.
In addition to the clever stuff the CG now read the inshore and full forecast every few hours and on demand. (provided they are not working to rule still!) When I was on the RYA cruising committee, now disbanded sadly, (think the RYA are heavily back into racing, not cruising). I suggested the CG could use the now defunct 'public correspondance' VHF channels to play a weather forecast tape on, permantly, as they do in the States. This was considdred a great idea by all, but as yet, 10 years on, no one has done it. Another wasted opportunity.
If the sound of the VHF on board grates, you could always turn it off, but I keep a listening watch and I have answered several calls for help, or assisted the RNLI and CG, and think those that opt out are more than a little antisocial. (Yep I know a couple of them....)
Add to this some ports and areas now have byelaws and regulations whereby you are required to monitor their VHF channels whilst in their area, you are expected to have a set.
Another point, the prices. A good, full digital DSC radio, waterproof with all bells and whistles can be less than £100.
What price safety?
Food for thought anyway
Regards,
John
Proud owner and builder of 'Fiddler's Green'
Hi again John
I hear you're comments and see you're view point, and I agree with the safety aspect.
I suppose I'm harking back to the days of real sailing before the digital age, and I have my own views about the RYA...lol, which I'll keep to myself for now, but needless to say I can see in the near future I'm likely to have to swallow my pride and allow some spotty so and so instruct me about sailing and handling a cruiser safely.
On an aside to that, have you come across any problems with insuring any boat which does not have modern communication equipment aboard?
kind regards
Adrian
I hear you're comments and see you're view point, and I agree with the safety aspect.
I suppose I'm harking back to the days of real sailing before the digital age, and I have my own views about the RYA...lol, which I'll keep to myself for now, but needless to say I can see in the near future I'm likely to have to swallow my pride and allow some spotty so and so instruct me about sailing and handling a cruiser safely.
On an aside to that, have you come across any problems with insuring any boat which does not have modern communication equipment aboard?
kind regards
Adrian
-
Fiddler's Green
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Wed March 1st, 2006, 12:58 pm
- Location: Essex
- Contact:
Insurance
I am now using 'craftinsure', as many owners are, see the link on the home page.
They certainly did not ask me what radio I had for mine, nor my daughter's boat....
When I get myself a new digital radio, which will happen, as the Coast Guard are now threatening to stop their listening watch to VHF..... I too will have to go back to school.. and I used to teach VHF!
Should be fun.
Regards,
John
They certainly did not ask me what radio I had for mine, nor my daughter's boat....
When I get myself a new digital radio, which will happen, as the Coast Guard are now threatening to stop their listening watch to VHF..... I too will have to go back to school.. and I used to teach VHF!
Should be fun.
Regards,
John
Proud owner and builder of 'Fiddler's Green'